conversations with max & zan

We grew up in the 70s. Came of age in the 80s.

It was rad. So rad, we often talk about how rad it all was.

So you know, we edit, but never censor. Not language or ideas or emotion.

In this edition: Stranger Things

Max: Hello?

Zan: Hi. We’re into Stranger Things—way in—and through episode six. I’m still processing, but early eval equals love.

Max: Told you.

Zan: After episode one, I wanted to hang with the four boys immediately. I like the Sheriff. And the 80s set decoration, fashion, food, games give it depth. Allow for that mystery I was talking about last time—not enough technology to have all the info. Love that. All the family dynamics were good too. Science teacher was awesome. Barb was AMAZING—in her two minutes on film. Winona was, well, Winona—her acting leaves me scratching my head. It’s like, non-acting acting. Which, I guess, is a style.

Max: She got better, though, right?

Zan: The brother—liked him a lot—he made Winona’s character more believable.

Max: What else did you like?

Zan: I thought the ending of episode one was fantastic…the boys finding the girl in the rain. So good.

Max: I want to carry the curly-haired speech impediment boy around in my pocket forever. He’s my favoritie.

Zan: God, right? I like all the sarcasm. I like that the kids cuss. This is my big problem with middle grade characters—in books or films—they’re so washed out today. Hey, world, starting in at least fifth grade, kids cuss like adults. And they’re just words. Relax. Anywho, I liked the abducted boy too. His face when he was waiting for the thing to come through the shed door? Brave in spite of his fear. He wasn’t giving up. Such good kid spirit—in all the boys.

Max: Okay, this is more than I expected. I would’ve felt terrible if you hadn’t liked it.

Zan: So, question: Hopper and the mom know, Nancy and the older bro know, the three boys and Eleven know, but when are they gonna join forces? And by the way, if this doesn’t have a happy ending, I’m gonna be pissed. If both Will and Barb aren’t alive? Well, shit. In any event, we think it’s gotten better with every episode. See a few flaws, but overall it’s money.

Max: I only have one huge problem with it, but it’ll have to wait until you’re finished. Spoiler.

A few days later:

Max: Hello, Zan. It’s hot as balls here.

Zan: Hello, Max. It’s raining here. Lots. And also… Why didn’t you tell me so many threads would be left dangling at the end of Stranger Things? This is only the first season, right? There will be another season, right?

Max: Chill, little addicted one.

Zan: But what is Hop doing? Where is Eleven? What is Will coughing up?

Max: I have my own questions.

Zan: Go.

Max: Why in the hell didn’t the sheriff and Mrs. Byers take Eleven back to her family immediately? They all lost children, so what the fuck? I mean, all Eleven wanted was to go to the snowball and eat eggos? Damn it.

Zan: Oh my god. I didn’t even think of that. You’re right. That’s fucked. They should’ve taken her to her family. But wait…

Max: What?

Zan: I’m thinking of something Pete said after we watched the episode with Eleven’s aunt. How they set us up for no answers by making the mom damaged and the aunt jaded and disbelieving. And truly, Eleven’s mom? She wasn’t exactly in the right state of mind to care for Eleven.

Max: Well, it’s better than death.

Zan: Eleven’s not dead. She’s hiding out in the upside down and Hop has the secret to get her out. For now, he has to provide for her, feed her.

Max: Oh, I didn’t realize you wrote it.

Zan: Listen, smartass, you got me into this and there better be a season two.

Max: I promised nothing.

Zan: Max, I need a season two.

Max: Zan, I’ll wish and hope for it…as much and hard as I can.

Zan: Thanks.

Max: Word.

conversations with max & zan

We grew up in the 70s. Came of age in the 80s.

It was rad. So rad, we often talk about how rad it all was.

So you know, we edit, but never censor. Not language or ideas or emotion.

In this edition: TV, Movies, Little Darlings

Zan: Okay. So. Have you noticed how many OnDemand networks have shows set in the 70s and 80s? Do we love this? Whether we watch the shows or not. Or does this water down 80s culture?

Max: Well, in some cases, absolutely. It’s the ones that make fun of the 80s, you know? Big hair, Madonna posters, blah, blah, blah. Those leave us empty. That’s why you must watch Stranger Things. It’s like it was made in the 80s, not made about the 80s. Huge difference.

Zan: Right. The one we’re watching, Red Oaks, is a betweener. Definitely has an 80s feel versus being about the 80s, but it’s lacking slightly on the feeling it was made in the 80s. So, what shows did we love back then? I feel like it’s an endless list. Three’s Company, Taxi, Too Close for Comfort, Family Ties. The Cosby Show—hold the jokes, please. We must give respect to the actors beyond Cosby who made that show so. Fucking. Awesome.

Max: Truth. And speaking of… The Facts of Life. I bought the first season, with Molly Ringwald and the bigger cast. Do you remember that the first episode has Blair accusing one of the others of being a lesbian? I didn’t remember that at all from the first go-round! Too young, I guess. Have I mentioned I’d like to have a Facts of Life party? But I’d just end up with a bunch of Jo-s.

Zan: Hil. Arious.

Max: You’d have a bunch of Blair-s.

Zan: I don’t want to be Blair. I want to be the chick with the braids. Molly R’s best friend, I think. And for the record, about six months ago, I binge-watched most of that first season online. I must’ve missed the pilot though, because I don’t recall the lesbian plot line. Kind of edgy for the time, but important—if it had the right message. At any rate, those episodes remind me of Little Darlings. The movie with Kristy McNichol and Tatum O’Neal. Loved—loved, loved—that movie. Like, loved it a lot.

Max: Okay, let’s unwrap all this. First, to clarify, I meant that if you had a Facts of Life party your guests would be a bunch of Blair-s, not that you’re a Blair.

Zan: Thank you. I think.

Max: Sure. Second, the girl with the pigtails is the one Blair accused of being gay. Thirdly, I can’t find Little Darlings anywhere. Apparently there’s a copyright dispute or some shit. And finally, I’m going to put this on a t-shirt.

Zan: Nice. And yes, I’ve tried to find LD too. So frustrating and stupid. But you missed something in the unwrapping process. What happened with Blair accusing Braids of being a lesbian? Was the message gay-friendly or homophobic?

Max: Disappointing ending… Braids puts on a dress and goes to a dance and something about a boy. Boo.

Zan: That sucks. But I think I remember the episode now. The message was more don’t-judge-the-tomboy. Wait. I want to look this up. Hold please.

Okay, yep, here Wiki tells us that critics thought the message was confusing. On one hand, Cindy (Braids) is told to be herself. On the other, everyone seems relieved when she falls for a guy during Harvest Fair. What do we expect, I guess. It was 1979, but still… Boo, for sure. On a high note, look how fucking cute Kristy and Tatum are in that poster. It’d be a great shirt.

Max: Indeed.

Zan: So I’m thinking about this tomboy thing. In LD, Kristy plays the tomboy, the tough one, and the movie’s premise is virginity as a competition. But they didn’t go down the lesbian path, as far as I remember. Which is interesting, because like Facts, LD featured fifteen year-olds, several of whom were cast as feminine and boy-crazy. So why not go there? Is this an 80s construct? Tomboy: not afraid of anything, including sex, OR tomboy: lesbian. Meanwhile other girls—feminine girls—could be anything, except gay. Message there? Feminine equals never gay, tomboy equals probably gay. Because there’s always the chance, right, that the tomboy will “grow out of it”? This might not be a thing of the past, now that I think about it. I mean, besides rare cases, isn’t the current tomboy only smart, nerdy, or athletic until they embrace femininity? Then they become sexy. And acceptable.

Max: Maybe. Remember Who’s the Boss? Alyssa Milano was all tomboy until that one episode where she girly-girls it up for a dance. As for today, it seems like if a girl is a tomboy talk turns to gender identity. Meaning people ask: is she transgender?

Zan: I forgot about Milano’s character as a tomboy. Another case of tomboy-ism cured by the dance…or a dress or boy. Ugh. It seems this is an issue for tomboys and lesbians alike, but transgender girls have whole other battles to fight. Double ugh.

Max: You know, I was so jealous of boys and how easy they seemed to have it. Jeans, t-shirts, messy hair. No pressure to be pretty or anything. I hated my big boobs and gross body. I think, if it had been an option, I would’ve wanted to identify as transgender. Not because I truly believed I was a boy, but because it would’ve been easier than being in a body I disliked.

Zan: But disliking your body and feeling you’re in the “wrong” body are different things. As I understand it, transgender folks feel a deep sense of being in the “wrong” body from a young age. You didn’t feel that, right?

Max: No, but for lots of reasons, including not fitting the cultural image of what a girl should want or be, I would’ve liked a way out of my body. I mean, I don’t think most women understand who they are until their sexual prime, and because of that, a lot of lesbians only come out of the closet in their thirties and forties. Makes sense. This is when we start to accept ourselves for who we are, what we look like, how we’re made. Before that though, don’t we wish for the easy way?

Zan: I think I’m getting your point. As children, we aren’t emotionally equipped to have a full understanding of the differences between sexual orientation and gender identification, and in the 70s and 80s, there were mixed messages about sex, but no one was talking about gender. If they had been, it could, to a child, seem like a choice between gay and identifying as the gender that looks more appealing, for whatever reason.

Max: Right. Try to remember being ten years old and all the silly ideas you had about what you would do when you grew up. If being able to become a boy—grow up looking like a boy, acting like a boy—was a choice, I wouldn’t have thought that was a silly solution for why I felt different. In the moment, it would’ve solved my dilemma with being a tomboy or feeling unfeminine and that would’ve felt like a wonderful, indulgent thing. Now, I’m completely happy with my gender. Still jealous of boys at times.

Zan: Well put. And this is why gender equality is a hot button issue for me. Girls’ and women’s experiences are different, but the definition of feminine fucks with all of us. I mean, once I stopped being petrified of boys I wanted them to see me as a girl, like me as a girl. But see and like me as the girl I was—a mostly ungirly girl. The deal is, I’ve always been fine with my girl bod and my girl traits. Where I disconnect—from childhood until now—is with girl experiences. Also, girl health has been a big obstacle for me. As you know, I’ve never felt particularly connected to my uterus, ovaries, et cetera. I don’t blame or shame them. I just always hoped for more cooperation.

Max: The health stuff just fucking sucks.

Zan: Is there such thing as transhormonal?

Max: Wow. You’re asking the wrong person. I’m too hormonally unstable to think straight.

Zan: Ha. We should form a club. Oh, the club already exists. It’s called perimenopause. So, I strayed off topic again. To get back, here’s a question… Which character in Little Darlings do you most identify with?

Max: Check it.

Zan: I love her. She was an After School Special regular. I’m IMBDing her.

Max: Me too.

Zan: Here she is… Alexa Kenin.

Max: Oh no.

Zan and Max: She died.

Zan: Right before Pretty in Pink came out.

Max: That sucks. Now that I’m reading this, I do remember her in P in P. The badass friend.

Zan: Oh, she was the badass in P in P? You have an amazing memory for pop culture. Who was she in LD?

Max: In LD she was the voice of reason throughout. And I would never participate in a bet about losing your virginity, so I feel I’m the most like that character.

Zan: I do remember liking that there were girls who questioned the bet. I remember being scared for Ferris (O’Neal) and Angel (McNichol) because I knew one or both would get burned. Which explains why I always relate to whichever character is the most scared of or most reasonable about boys. I couldn’t have played the tough or cute one because I’d NEVER take the bet. I would’ve been glad to be viewed as a chicken, teased endlessly, mocked even. Those things I could handle. Anything to avoid a weird confrontation with a boy. By the way, what does it say about me that I always want to be the supporting cast?

Max: Well, we’re alike that way. I’d always take the supporting role. They’re usually liked more anyway. Ferris and Angel were definitely larger than life. Very intimidating.

Zan: Yes, that’s the exact right word. Intimidating. So, next question… If there’s a time machine and you can go back and be a star-for-a-day on any 80s sitcom or movie, which do you choose?

Max: I’d be Watts in Some Kind of Wonderful. Minus the crush on Eric Stoltz. Yuck. The movie I’d absolutely not want to be part of is Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. I fucking hated that movie.

Zan: First, I have a love/hate thing with Ferris B. It has a good 80s feel. The sister is awesome. And I love the teachers and the school secretary. Yes, she’s a secretary. A double-awesome secretary.

“Oh, he's very popular Ed. The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wastoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude.”

So good. Anyway, I also heart Cameron. But I hate Ferris. He’s a used car salesman with good style and smarts. He’s a terrible friend and sexist to boot. As for Watts in Some Kind? Great pick, man.

And Eureka! Finally a film where the boy comes running to the tomboy…no dress, no dance…just a guy running to a gal in all her tomboy glory. I get why you’d nix him though.

Max: He’s just such a twat in that movie. I don’t really like him in anything.

Zan: I kinda agree. Except I think what’s-his-face in P in P is more of a mealy-mouthed douche. I wish Andy/Molly would’ve told him to fuck off at the end, at the prom.

Max: Here’s another reason why you must watch Stranger Things. The teen romance elements are realistic, stay true to the characters, and don’t ruin the story line. I think you’ll like Barb.

Zan: Gawd, peer pressure, what’s up? But okay. I’ll watch it. I’ve heard good things anyway. The trailer vibed Close Encounters to me. Which I liked. Along with all the kid/teen characters. Very E.T. To me, this is the thing remakes lack—that sense of mystery and hope that existed in the 80s. Today everything can be explained. I don’t know why I’m thinking of it, but the example that comes to mind are the Charlie’s Angels movies set in present day. Crime-solving women were just different in the 70s and 80s.

Max: The new Angels movies are pretty terrible, but I watch anything with Barrymore because she’s my wife and I support everything she does. Smile here. Of course, I loved the original angels. In fact, I went through a trading card phase—mostly 70s and 80s non-sports cards—and I have quite a few Charlie’s Angels first series. So cool.

Zan: Truly cool.

Max: But let’s talk about Christian Slater.

Zan: Oookay…

Max: You must agree that many otherwise amazing films have been jacked up because Slater was in them.

Zan: He ruined the skater movie for sure. Plus, he always has a look on his face like, “I might say something smart, but wait. No. On second thought, I won’t.”

Max: Tried too hard to be Jack Nicholson.

Zan: Yes! I was just gonna say that. Oh! It just came to me… Gleaming the Cube. That was the skater movie. Slater aside, it had a lame plot line too. I’m pretty sure I walked out on that movie.

Max: I feel like I only saw the first fifteen minutes.

Zan: Max. We must’ve gone together. I feel like whoever I was with also knew how horrible the thing was about to become and didn’t care about walking out and losing the cash we’d paid for the ticket. Better than watching a shitty movie.

Max: Absolutely better.

Zan: Listen, I gotta sign off.

Max: Me too. Mommy duties call. But look, get in front of that TV and watch Stranger Things.

Zan: Well, stranger things have happened.

Max: Very funny. Now, go.

conversations with max & zan

We grew up in the 70s. Came of age in the 80s.

It was rad. So rad, we often talk about how rad it all was.

So you know, we edit, but never censor. Not language or ideas or emotion.

In this edition: Vans, fashion, judgement

Max: So, I posted this picture and not one person commented on the totally rad shoes I’m wearing in the photo.

Zan: Love the shoes. Like, totally heart. As you can see, I’ve got my whites on today.

Max: Are you going fishing? Wait. Why make a sad face?

Zan: I like cuffed jeans. I cuff often.

Max: If that’s the style, I’m clueless. I’m just now joining the 90s. Actually, I should do that too. I have tiny feet and my awesome shoes are often hidden under the hem of my jeans.

Zan: Just be sure the cuff doesn’t get out of hand and make your jeans look more like old lady peddle-pushing slacks.

Max: What the hell is wrong with old lady slacks? I can’t wait.

Zan: Old lady slacks equals never. Never.

Max: You’ll come around.

Zan: I’d do a sansabelt pant or the permanent crease pant. But NOT a capri.

Max: I don’t know what any of that means.

Zan: Okay, let’s get this shit together. Vans. Go.

Max: Check it…

Zan: I knew the story, but hadn’t seen the video. Cool. What say you? Lace up or slip on? And how many pairs does a person need? Did you skateboard—I don’t remember us doing that together?

Max: I prefer slip on. Although, I do enjoy a nice pair of deck shoes. Can’t have too many. And yes, I skated a little in junior high, but sucked at it.

Zan: What did your skateboard look like?

Max: My skateboard was lame and generic and guys made fun of me. It was neon pink originally and when I spray-painted it dark red, those same dudes said it was cool. Suckers.

Zan: Those jerks. I rode my sisters’ skateboards. One had been around the garage since the late 70s. It was metallic blue and made of heavy grade aluminum. Kinda badass. But I never had a cool one of my own. I just remember everyone in my neighborhood had some kind of board—shitty or rad, it didn’t matter. We’d get together and create a base with the boards and then pile everyone on so we could hot dog down the hill. So fucking dangerous. And awesome. Anyway, what I was really into was skater fashion. In junior high, I only had checkered Vans—and I think they were used. I mean, I don’t recall buying them. Could my sister have lifted them off someone and given them to me? That’s a stretch, but it seems like there was some story around those shoes. Later, in high school, I bought lace-ups. I also had this keychain...a miniature pair of Van’s board shorts. Wait. I still have it.

Zan: Oh, and I was flipping through this old MAD magazine the other day and had to smile when I saw the kid's shoes. PS: he cuffs.

Max: That’s rad. PSS: his jeans aren't high-waters. Anyway, I never had a pair back then. Too poor, and if I got new shoes, I got Nikes.

Zan: Nikes, pronounced without the e-sound before the s.

Max: Right. I got a blue pair with a yellow stripe with my birthday money one year.

Zan: Blue with yellow were THE best! I had two leather pair, but one was a knock-off. The other pair was also a birthday gift—white with a red swoosh. Once I got to junior high I regretted some of my fashion choices from sixth grade. Those shoes ended up feeling too rocker. So, how many Chucks and Vans do you have now?

Max: I have a lot. I think I have so many because I couldn’t have them then.

Zan: Right. Right. Okay, let’s fill in the blanks. A good outfit day in ’85 would’ve been…

Max: Parachute pants—dorky, but I wanted a pair so fucking bad—big, fat white leather high tops, and a cool t-shirt.

Zan: I say Calvins, a white men’s Hanes tee, and Vans. Okay. Next. Fill in the blank: Other cool tennies besides Converse and Vans are…

Max: Air Jordans. Didn’t those come out around then?

Zan: Air Jordans? I’d have to check. Hold please. Ah-ha, here it is. Yes, Jordans were first released in 1985.

Max: But let’s back up. I’m saying no way to you wearing a tee back then. Shelley Call would’ve called you tacky. Like she did when I wore one.

Zan: White men’s tee equals totally. I used to snag my dad’s and wear them. They were beefy tees. Which I loved 'cause oversized was in—gag. And by the way, Shelley Call had a shitload of tees, so if she said that about t-shirts she was being a dick.

Max: How about Ocean Pacific? Or Panama Jack?

Zan: OP. Yes. I loved OP everything. I had a few pair of the corduroy board shorts. One was the boy version and the other was the girl version. Jesus, I’d forgotten about OP. So good.

Max: Okay. So. Taking this in a different direction, remember Night of the Comet? It’s been playing on some of the movie channels so I DVR’d it.

Zan: Get out! I LOVE NIGHT OF THE COMET!

Max: You gotta find and watch it. I also came across The Wedding Singer. Such a kick ass movie. I just I hate how Adam Sandler is the romantic interest.

Zan: He’s so stupid and gross. Not funny at all.

Max: Also not funny? Our good buddy Robert Smith in ugly, dirty white high tops. Look it up. Coolest person in the worst shoes.

Zan: You are such a pop culture whiz. I forgot about Smith always wearing those dirty shoes. Why? Such a style killer. I mean, clean your kicks, dude. And so, if he’s the coolest person in the worst shoes, who’s the dumbest person in the most kickass shoes?

Max: Easy. DiCaprio. Seems like he’d be such a douche bag. But I’ve noticed he usually wears shoes I’d totally wear. So annoying.

Zan: We’re being very judge-y.

Max: We are.

Zan: All righty then.

Max: If it makes you feel better, let’s judge shoe brands from the 80s.

Zan: I love it. Here’s some that spring to mind: Kappa, Reebok, Tretorn, Keds, Sporto.

Max: Tretorn was a good one. I had a pair of those.

Zan: And…

Max: And?

Zan: That’s all you got. I thought we were being judge-y.

Max: I might do better with something that really captures the 80s experience. Like coca-cola rugby shirts or boxer shorts as, well, shorts. I mean, shoes are one thing, but consider this: would you wear a pair of Guess jeans today?

Zan: Hmm? I don’t know. Jordache, Gloria Vanderbilt, or Calvin, maybe. If I could get a modern cut. I saw some vintage Calvins at a thrift store recently, but they had a big ole 20” zipper, zipping from the change basket to just under the tits. Horrible.

Max: Right.

Zan: Would you rock Guess jeans today?

Max: No fucking way. They fit weird.

Zan: Exactly. All jeans from the 80s fit weird. And the high-waisted jean is back in style. Gross. Totally constricts the belly and innards. Wait. I’ll revise that statement. Most jeans from the 80s are weird. Some Calvin Kleins had that boyfriend fit. Lower waist, straight leg. Due to cost, and me generally being a pussy, I bought other brands and pegged. But if I could find those Calvins…

Max: Levi’s were the way to go. Classic.

Zan: True. I still pegged the leg though. Ugh.

Max: See, it’s easier to judge clothes than shoes.

Zan: Okay. Let’s see how many awful, but also awesome, 80s fashion trends we can name. I’ll start. Neon anything.

Max: Belly shirt, off-the-shoulder shirt, lace shirt.

Zan: Over-accessorizing, Madonna-style. Push-down socks.

Max: Forenza sweaters, oversized blazers, shoulder pads, sleeves rolled up on tees.

Zan: High cut bikini underwear. Just. Hideous. And stealing from earlier, pegged jeans and tapered jeans. Also, remember layering oxfords over polos?

Max: Oh, that was straight-up rad.

Zan: Yeah. Maybe. What about collars flipped up? I still do that.

Max: Of course you do. Fisherman cuffs and collar flipped up. That’s my Zan.

Zan: Checkered Vans with a sarcasm suit. That’s my Max.

Max: If we’re talking about the 80s, it’s a power suit, my friend.

Zan: The power suit. Right. With slacks.

Max: Old lady slacks.

Zan: Off the wall.

Max: Totally.

conversations with max & zan

We grew up in the 70s. Came of age in the 80s.

It was rad. So rad, we often talk about how rad it all was.

So you know, we edit, but never censor. Not language or ideas or emotion.

In this edition: gymsuits, self-esteem, survival 

Zan: Okay, brace yourself. Look what I found. My junior high gymsuit.

Max: Holy shit! The gym onesie. So humiliating. How in the hell do you still have that?

Zan: I don’t know. It seemed liked something I should keep. Maybe because it had my name in felt letters on the back.

Max: I was so self-conscious in that thing that I BEGGED to wear a t-shirt over it. In fact, I insisted and Ms. Leonard came into the locker room and watched me put my regular clothes back on. Remember her, with hair bobbed into a perfect triangle. So awesome. Anyway, at the time, I thought it was super creepy, but she was checking for signs of abuse.  

Zan: I LOVED Ms. Leonard. Didn’t most girls think she was a bitch, but she was actually really cool? And obviously, caring. It’s nice to hear that a teacher cared at that level. But if they really cared they’d have realized how ridiculous a gymsuit was as athletic wear.

Max: Our regular teacher was… Who? Not Mrs. Zenith?

Zan: No. Mrs. Zenith was a tough cookie. We had Mrs. Kimler.

Max: Mrs. Kimler, oh yeah! Huge muscly thighs. Too much of a good thing.

Zan: Way too much. But she forgave me for being mostly unathletic. And complaining endlessly about the guysuit.

Max: Meanwhile, on the other side of the gym, the boys wore black shorts and a green shirt. School colors. I was so jealous. It was so unfair.

Zan: Right. And there we were, in navy blue onsies, having to almost fully undress just to pee. And the top—which was supposed to blouse over the bottoms—would get twisted or snagged on equipment.

Max: Well, I had huge boobs. Not gymsuit compatible.

Zan: I had a tummy and I remember Mrs. Kimler poking middle and calling me Pillsbury Dough Boy.

Max: WHAT? That’s horrible. You were skinny.

Zan: Skinny fat. At my middle. With lean appendages. I’m pulling out the scrapbook.

Zan: Me. What a dumbass. She said fondly and lovingly.

Max: You were not. The thing is, it’s bad enough to go through puberty looking like a zit-covered alien, but then to force us into form-fitting shit left over from the 1950s?

Zan: Right. Thirty years later and no one figured out how jacked that suit was? With that neckline—itchy and fake feminine—and that piping—why? And why make fake fucking pockets? Give me some real pockets, at least, so I have a place to tuck my hands while I’m bowing my head in shame.

Max: I was just so bothered by the tightness of it that I didn’t care much how it looked. And, yes, the key word is shame. We were supposed to all look the same. No individuality, no calling attention to any of those nasty girl parts that we weren’t to talk about. Ever.

Zan: Exactly, but the fabric actually showed all the bits. Remember how we’d raid the lost and found and wear neckties or vests or mismatched shoes just to buck the system. I wanted to be unique and I wanted to distract from how oddly revealing the suit was.

Max: Because it was tight.

Zan: Made to fit a fictitious girl.

Max: Yes. I remember being sad when I first saw it. Thinking of the girls who could wear anything and look beautiful or perfect. Even in that horrible thing. For other kids, well, it was hard enough trying to fit in.

Zan: I dreaded it too. Felt scared to wear it because my sisters complained how ugly it made a person. I had no boobs and crooked teeth and didn’t need another reason to feel weird. So, did you care about being “pretty” or “beautiful” or did you just want to look cool? I cared a lot about looking cool, stylish. All the time. Anywhere. And I did not want my hiney to show.

Max: For me, I cared about being beautiful. It was just something I knew I’d never be. I remember boys always talked to me like I was another boy. Made me sad then. I get it now.

Zan: I knew I’d never be beautiful either. I could accept that. I just wanted an identity. MY identity. I actually liked when boys treated me like a boy. I felt respected. Equal. Still, they scared me. Their judgment scared me. I didn’t want to be defined by a boy.

Max: I’ve pointed this out before, but you did okay. You fit in.

Zan: Well, I didn’t have stand-out good looks or the best clothes, but I had some confidence. Which was really defiance. I’ve always been sensitive to the nuances in people’s behavior. And my own. Even back then I understood that most kids didn’t feel awesome about themselves. At all. There were probably only a few kids who truly felt attractive in all aspects. Some who got deemed “popular” clung to that and tried to make the rest of us feel unworthy. But they were fucking idiots with no good ideas. Those were kids I had to stand up to—shaking in my boots—and let know they couldn’t define me. Learned to do that in the family unit and sometimes that behavior made me uncool with the “cool” kids. Truth is, I was nerdy, silly, immature, and unsure, but I could see through the roles kids adopted or were given. Maybe it gave me a slight leg up. But I never shared those feelings with you. We were kids. I didn’t know how.

Max: There was a lot we didn’t say, I agree.

Zan: If I could go back in time, I’d tell you I saw your charm, wit, and a cleverness. I saw how you were sweet and edgy.

Max: I’ve distracted you from the topic at hand. Gymsuits. Go.

Zan: You’re gonna breeze over my friendly comments?

Max: I run from emotion. And speaking of running… What sports did you like?

Zan: Okay. I’ll let you off the hook. So. I hated sports. Except golf. And some track. ‘Cause spazzes love to run. But I didn’t really hate sports. I hated gym class.

Max: What about swimming? In high school? I used to change in the bathroom stall, but after class, after the shower, Coach Perkins made us walk by her naked. We were actually graded on showering.

Zan: Like the gym suit, grading on hygiene was left over from the old days. Some Don’t-Be-Mr.-Bungle bullshit. I remember thinking, “Yeah, don’t worry Coach Perkins. I’ll wash my mosquito bite tits and hiney, but at home.”

Max: If I could go back in time, I’d ask why. Why the gymsuit? Why the deeply shaming locker room rules? I did love gym and sports, so why ruin it?

Zan: We just had to get through it.

Max: Yeah.

Zan: Yeah.

conversations with max & zan

Conversations with Max & Zan

We grew up in the 70s. Came of age in the 80s.

It was rad. So rad, we often talk about how rad it all was.

So you know, we edit, but never censor. Not language or ideas or emotion.

In this edition:

Prince: expression, equality, & censorship

Zan: Prince dies…so sad.

Max: It’s horrible.

prince, 19, robert whitman photography

Max: Only 57, wonder what happened.

Zan: Four days ago he had to land his plane to be treated for the flu. He performed the next night and said he was okay. Then he went home to Minnesota. When they found him, he was unresponsive in an elevator in his house. He couldn’t be revived and died at home. Elevator equals interesting…ascending to the Great Perhaps? Also, it’s raining in Minneapolis today. Purple rain?

Max: And if the elevator tries to bring you down, go crazy, punch a higher floor.

Zan: Oh shit.

Max: You know the song Darling Nikki is what made Tipper Gore start her movement to put warning labels on tapes and CDs.

Zan: I remember. I guess she was a square. Did you buy the Purple Rain album in ‘84?

Max: Of course! Fucking loved it. Still do.

Zan: Me too.

purple rain, released july 1984, amazon

Max: Remember how just looking at the cover, opening the tape, and reading the stuff inside made us feel? The hours we spent listening to it, reading every word of the insides. The way it smelled even. How awesome was it when they had the lyrics?

Zan: I fucking loved having the lyrics. It was like a book. And with the Purple Rain cover, it said so much about what we were about to find in the music. It was badass, sexy, and I loved the feminine elements. Not just the flower border, but how he was embracing his femininity. It blew me away.

Max: Yes! His music wasn’t like anything at the time. Not for us, anyway. Girls in the Midwest. My favorite song is DMSR. So good. On Purple Rain, I’d have to say Computer Blue. Although, The Beautiful Ones is so intense.

Zan: All solid tunes. Hey, speaking of not being like anything we’d seen before… What about Boy George? He’s touring with Culture Club again. He was a judge on Project Runway. I love him. Love how he plays around with that gender-neutrality thing too. The fashion of Prince and Boy George? I was a part time tomboy and needed these artists. I mean, I didn’t know that then, but I felt it. It’s like they were saying, “Forget gender, just be who you are.”

Max: I’m not your woman. I’m not your man. I am something that you’ll never understand.

Zan: Exactly.

Max: Okay, since we’re on the subject. Other greats. The Cure.

Zan: Duh.

Max: Howard Jones.

Zan: Saw him live in ninth grade. Awesome.

Max: Did you go to Simple Minds back then? I swear I remember you telling me about it.

Zan: I wish I’d seen Simple Minds. I found Jim Kerr so fascinating.

Max: And Prince? In three words.

Zan: Inspiring, sexy, smart.

Max: Androgynous, eclectic, unique. But I prefer the definition of unique: unlike anything else.

Zan: Oh that’s good. Favorite outfit? Favorite hair?

Max: I like him shirtless in the bathtub. Never thought I’d say that, but… I love his hair when he was on American Bandstand.

Zan: I like the black crop top and tight pants in the Kiss video.

Max: I’m sticking with shirtless. Because even without all those shiny clothes and ruffles, he’s still so cool.

Zan: Right?

Max: Google his American Bandstand appearance.

prince with dick clark, 1979, prince.org

Zan: Oh shit. The feathered hair is amazing. I’d forgotten about it. How did you remember this?

Max: I loved American Bandstand. Until Solid Gold stole my heart.

Zan: He’s 19 in this performance!

Max: Oh yeah. He was still looking for representation then.

Zan: Your memory is amazing. PS: I LOVED SOLID GOLD. But… was it sexist?

Max: Of course. How about this? Nasty Girl, Prince wrote it, and it was the first time I ever heard a woman sing about sex. Not love or heartache, but straight up sex. Prince was a feminist.

Zan: Right. Sex, equality were spiritual things for him. So, here’s a question: Would you rather be a Solid Gold dancer or the baggage handler on Prince’s tour bus?

Max: Easy. Baggage handler. But I’d get fired for stealing.

Zan: What would you steal? I’d steal a pair of pants. The man had awesome pants. I love pants.

Max: Slacks.

Zan: Right. Slacks.

Max: And I’d steal whatever was sparklyist. Yes, sparklyist is a word.

Zan: Right. Sparklyist slacks.

welcome 2 america tour, 2011, getty images

Zan: Well, I gotta go.

Max: Me too.

Zan: Have a good night.

Max: Dream purple dreams.